Discover the heartwarming story of a transgender son and his supportive mother as they navigate the complexities of gender identity and psychological safety. Learn how empathy, open communication, and unconditional love can create a space where individuals can truly flourish. In today’s episode, Dr. Karolin Helbig and her transgender son, Kay Helbig, explore the complexities of gender identity, the importance of psychological safety, and the transformative power of empathy. They offer valuable insights into the importance of creating a safe and supportive environment for all individuals through their honest and heartfelt stories. Learn how to create a space where everyone feels seen, heard, and valued. Join Kay and Dr. Karolin Helbig in this heartwarming conversation and discover the power of empathy, understanding, and unconditional love as you embark on this transformative journey together.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/karolinhelbig/
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Canaries In The Coal Mine: Gender Identity, Psychological Safety, And A Family’s Inspiring Story With Kay And Karolin Helbig
In this episode, we’re sharing a little something special, different from what we usually do, but also in the theme of diversity. This is the show where we talk about leadership, communication, diversity, inclusion, and acceptance. Last time I promoted an episode with Dr. Minette Norman and Dr. Karolin Helbig about the psychological safety playbook.
In the conversations about recording their episode with them, Dr. Karolin mentioned that it was Pride Month and she has a son who is transgender. She said she would very much like to share what she learned about psychological safety. Her son Kai, who is eighteen, had said that he would like to talk as well. We recorded this in June 2024 as a LinkedIn Live, and I’m now rebroadcasting it on this platform so that you can learn a bit more about what’s it like to be in that kind of relationship.
Before we start, let me give you the biographies. Kai is eighteen years old and is not a public person. We are not sharing his picture or his bio. His mother, Karolin, has been building on more than two decades of experience as a management consultant in leadership development, along with a deep expertise in science.
Karolin Helbig helps leaders increase their effectiveness, optimize team performance, and transform their organizations through mindset, emotional intelligence, and psychological safety. She serves large international corporations, as well as smaller companies and nonprofit organizations, and is known for bridging the gap between theory and practice.
Previously, Karolin spent more than fifteen years as a top management consultant at McKinsey & Company, working as a trusted advisor and in my case, a coach to solve her client’s toughest issues. She integrated world-class problem-solving, industry experience, and proprietary tools and capabilities to create change and lasting impact with organizations in industries from banking to public service to chemicals in Europe and the Middle East.
While in that role, Karolin saw firsthand how real transformation is not the result of optimized processes and systems, but the result of transforming people leadership. Before McKinsey, Dr. Karolin received her PhD in Human Genetics from Philips University in Marburg, Germany. Now, she integrates neuroscience findings that revolutionize the way we understand how human brains function and translate them into applicable actions and powerful leadership practices.
That is the mother’s bio. For Kai, you’ll have to hear it from himself. I found this a fascinating and illuminating interview. I’m excited to be sharing it with you. On to the interview with Karolin and Kai Helbig.
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Dr. Karolin Helbig, welcome to Speakers Who Get Results.
Thanks for inviting us.
We’re excited to have you here. We’re doing this recording because I have another traditional podcast episode with Karolin and her co-author Minette Norman, who have written a book about psychological safety at work. This is Dr. Karolin. She said, “I have a trans child who has taught me a lot about psychological safety.” We are recording this in June of 2024, which is Pride Month that celebrates lesbian, gay, bisexual, transsexual, and all the variations in between.
I’m very curious to have Kai talk about the way he perceives this. Before we start, Karolin, I have your answer in the other episode, but Kai, I always ask who would be your dream interview. If you were to talk to somebody from history, who would it be, what would you ask them, and who should be listening?
The Dream Interview
Just because we’re on this trans topic right now, it would be either Kurt Cobain or Joan of Arc. It is because, from their stories, I get a lot of things that I can relate to as a trans person. I’m curious to know how they feel about that and how they relate to that story of being transgender.
For those who aren’t familiar with Kurt Cobain, who was he and what would you ask him?
He was the lead singer of Nirvana, the rock band, whose most famous track is, Smells Like Teen Spirit. In the way that he lived and in a lot of the lyrics that he wrote, I can see some of what I have experienced and come to name as gender dysphoria. For example, there’s a lyric in one of his songs that goes, “I swear I don’t have a gun.” You can say that maybe it’s about not being armed, but there might be a deeper level to that.
Referring to body parts, perhaps.
Also, the way that he died is a thing I’ve seen happen before with trans people. In my not very near but still, proximity over five corners or something, if you don’t have a way of naming what this feeling is, this feeling of dysphoria, this feeling of being not in tune with your body and your gender, and what it does to a person, I would describe it as vibes mainly that I get.
Joan of Arc, I can guess, but what would you ask Joan of Arc?
I would ask Joan of Arc if she was satisfied with the way men and women were tasked with different things in society and those different things have different ways to them, different ways people view them, and different words attached to them. Also, if she had the choice, would she be a man or a woman?
Very good question. There was an old saying that, “Heroes are no fun to live with at home.” Joan of Arc was great while she was rallying the troops. Once they won, she was way too dangerous to have around. The church did its best to put her back in the box that she’d broken out of. Lots have been written about that. Thank you very much. Starting with you, Kai, a trans kid born as a girl, tell me a little bit about what was it like to realize that you were male inside, your gender dysphoria.
Gender Dysphoria
That was difficult because there wasn’t any education on transgender or being even a thing that existed when I was growing up.
You are eighteen now, right?
I’m eighteen now but when I was around twelve years old, I started puberty and felt wrong that I couldn’t put my finger on it. I only learned about transgender dysphoria being a thing when I went to England for a year at 14 or 15 years old. I found out about it and pretty quickly drew the line to myself and found a way to relate to that and to find myself in it. I started my journey from there, trying out different labels, different identities, and different names before I finally landed on this one. I’ve had this one for three years now and I’m very happy.
Karolin, as a straight cisgender mother, what was it like for you to have your kid come home from England and say, “Guess what, Mom,” or whatever it was that Kai said?
That’s a huge learning journey and my feeling is I’m in the middle of the learning journey. There is so much I have to learn. Since I’m straight, when I discussed with Kai, “How was it for you to discover this? In our family, was I helpful? Was I not helpful? I remember conversations when I didn’t do a good job of realizing what was going on and being supportive and so on because this was all new to me and I had to learn so much.
I was relieved that Kai said, “At some points, you could have done better, but all together it was okay, but sometimes it wasn’t good.” Even when we discussed this, we landed on, “I’m non-queer.” How is it to be raised by a non-queer mom and being a queer kid? This expression of being non-queer is a nice way to put it instead of implying the normal, the usual, the main, the majority, or the normal one.
Is that an English phrase that you use, or are you translating from German? Non-queer.
It works in both languages the same. The first time I used the phrase, it was in English. It’s a coincidence that it was English the first time I used it because I was talking in English to a friend of mine.
While we’re talking about that, Kai, tell us what pronouns you use. How do you refer to yourself and how did you decide? What made the right decision?
I used he and him pronouns pretty much exclusively in German. In English, I’m a bit more flexible about it, but it’s still mainly he and him. I refer to myself not as a man because I feel I’m a bit too young to be a full-grown man yet. I call myself a guy most of the time or a boy.
Which German words do you use? We have a large number of German audience.
In German, I like the word Jugendlicher, which is a very nice description of the age of that. How I got to realize it was mostly trial and error, trying out different pronouns, different ways of referring to myself, and feeling which ones feel the best, which ones feel the most comfortable, which ones feel the most natural, which ones feel right, and which ones don’t.
Karolin, you talk about psychological safety in business. At what point did you realize that this applied to life at home as well or was it the other way around?
Psychological Safety
In a way, it was very much the other way around because I was a mom long before I focused on psychological safety as a topic for my leadership consultancy. As a mom, it was always key. I’m a mom of four, not all sons. The core for me is to create an atmosphere where my kids all feel seen, heard, and loved. It was very important to me.
I tried to see what is it that this kid is interested in right now and how can I support this interest. For example, with activities, with books, with input, or whatever creative stuff. This was my journey as a mom. Much later as a leadership consultant, I focused on psychological safety. This is not a coincidence because creating an atmosphere where people feel seen, heard, loved, and respected is the key to psychological safety.
Gender Identity: Creating an atmosphere where people feel seen, heard, and respected is the key to psychological safety.
It applies to the private life, as well as to the business life. People need to feel that way to be their best selves. First of all, as a mom, I learned how important it is to create a nice atmosphere for everyone to be able to grow into their best self. As a leadership consultant, I focused on psychological safety. I see all the parallels.
One of the other things that you mentioned before we started this recording is the link between psychological safety and queerness, and how queer people can be like canaries in the coal mine, I guess to alert us that something is going wrong. Kai, I don’t know if that was your question or if that was Karolin’s question.
That was my way of putting things that if a place is visibly unsafe for queer people, for minorities, and for everybody who might feel excluded in a way, that is your alert that it’s only safe on a condition. Assume that the space is only safe for you on the condition that you fit in is no longer safe.
Kai explained it that way. I then came up with this metaphor of the canaries in the mine because you have an early indicator that something is wrong and something is not as good as it should be. It’s important to create an atmosphere where the canaries can flourish so everyone can flourish.
For those who are unfamiliar with the phrase, “Canaries in the coal mine.” In the coal mines, they would bring down a canary in the cage. If the air is bad, if there’s not enough oxygen, the canary will faint before the humans will. If you see the canary lying on the bottom of the cage with its claws up, then you say, “Get out,” because the air is not good. It’s a warning signal. Hard on the poor canaries.
For that, I’ve got an interesting fact. The miners would get attached to their birds. In some instances, they built little rivivifying machines for them so they could live longer.
Extra oxygen for the canaries. I would think so too. You’re down in the dark in the coal mine, you’ve got this bright yellow bird. I guess it has to be something. You talk about queerness. The next question is the difference between gender identity and sexual orientation. For those to whom this is a new thought or who lump everything together at once, how do you define the difference?
The difference between gender identity and sexuality is quite short and currently put as sexuality is who you’re attracted to, and gender identity is who you are.
Very good. I like that.
Just to add to what you asked earlier, and when I mentioned that I feel that I’m not at all at the end of my learning journey. Kai and I were discussing a lot. This is the point where I think big learning lies also for business is to go beyond the binary boxes. That was the label Kai started with being nonbinary. I love this idea. The learning invitation to all of us to realize that these boxes are limiting us. The box, male or female and to go beyond this and realize we are all on a spectrum.
Every single one of us could build our own box. We are not doing people a favor by labeling them, by putting them in a box and not letting them out. It’s something very limiting. I’d love business to go more in this direction and treat everyone in your team, in your company, wherever you are, and realize the person you are sitting in front of. As a unique person, every single box with a single person in it, and not a box where you put a big category and to all people in it.
I’ve got a lot to say about it because I’ve put a lot of thought into it in these past five years or so. The boxes male and female can be very useful, but they’re very much optional. For example, I’ve got a cisgender male friend who went through his journey of examining his gender, examining the societal stereotypes associated with gender, and then landing on the decision that the gender binary isn’t a perfect construction and it’s very much a model of a way of looking at the world. That realization didn’t require him to change his gender. He’s still a guy.
The gender binary isn't a perfect construction. It's a model of a way of looking at the world. Share on X
It’s a shortcut. It’s an easy code to say, “We are one or the other.” Many of the things I talk about are how different people think which traditionally has been connected with men’s language and women’s language. Yet, in the last several decades, as we learn more about how there’s such a spectrum, not everybody is all one thing at once, but there are some things that you can use as a way to begin understanding.
It’s a starting point. Use it as a very simplifying model and then be fluid in your perception in the way you interact with the other persons and not be rigid with these boxes.
I love the way people can be a little bit of both. I was in New York City and was meeting a friend at the restaurant. The person who checked me in said, “Yes, we have your reservation.” Beautiful young woman and actress. She was talking to her friends about the play. Every waiter in New York is an actor or an actress. She then took the menu and said, “Come, your table is right over there,” in a deep base voice. I said, “Okay. Good for that.” I thought, “New York City.” I love being in New York. Let’s go to the dos and don’ts. I don’t know if you have that list in front of you. Would you like me to read it or do you want to begin? You sent me a beautiful long list.
The Dos and Donts
One starting point that relates to this point that came first is creating an atmosphere where my kids can grow into their best selves. Psychological safety is a topic for me as a leadership consultant. There are many similarities. That’s the key. That’s always something that I discuss with my clients. The most important thing you can do is to listen.
I think that is the key in any relationship, to listen with the intent to understand and not with the intent to judge, to fight, to argue against, and to put forward your own story and so on. This is something that I always tried with Kai and I know a lot of instances that I wasn’t at my best and did a poor job. However, this is always something that I tried to do.
The key in any relationship is to listen with the intent to bend, not with the intent to judge, fight, argue against, and put forward your own story. Share on X
It wasn’t too bad and you’re a whole person as well, aren’t you? You have your troubles, trials, and tribulations, and of course, you won’t be able to do a 100% psychologically perfect job as a mother all the time.
This was key with all the ups and downs that Kai and I went through together. We never stop listening to each other. Particularly, listening as a mom to Kai in this phase of finding his identity. This was key for us in this learning journey.
Many of us are programmed to listen and then try to fix it. Just listening is hard. I would say to anyone out there who feels like they’re not heard, anyone who is tuning in to this conversation, it’s okay to say to your friend, “I don’t want you to fix anything. I just want you to hear me.” Chances are the friend is going to try to fix it because that’s what society teaches us to do. It’s okay to start by saying, “I just want to talk and try not to fix it.”
A thing that I do a lot with my neuro-divergent friends, which I have a whole lot, is when we have to vent to each other or when we have to run to each other, we first set down ground rules. “I’m looking for a solution. I’m looking for emotional support. I just need to get it out of my system.” Those are the three main versions of the rant.
That’s very important. Here is this wonderful list. “Don’t assume that how you are is the norm and everything else is a deviant. Don’t have a fixed expectation of how the other should be or behave. Don’t laugh at the other or make jokes about what is unusual to you.” I’m going to ask you to comment on those three.
Don't assume that how you are is the norm and everything else is deviant. Don't have a fixed expectation of how others should behave. Share on X
Not having expectations of how the other should be is not easy, particularly, as a mother. Even though maybe you don’t explicitly have expectations, you have implicit expectations. When these expectations aren’t met and maybe something comes out completely different than you would have expected, this is not an easy thing to be confronted with. I can remember some situations where I had this, “My goodness, this is completely different from what I would have expected.” It’s not easy to become friends with a new situation.
Also, as a child, you pick up on your parent’s expectations or disappointments even if they’re implicit. Even if your parents haven’t even realized them perhaps, you pick up on it. You notice that and you internalize that.
The do’s are, “Be non-judgmental and listen.” We spoke about that. “Get curious.” How does that reflect in business and the family?
Let me go into queerness first. I realized my gender identity by asking questions, asking myself questions, but also, importantly, my mother asking the right questions. I talked to my mother at one point about being non-binary and she asked this one important question that kickstarted an entire inner process for me. The question was, “Do you think you’d still be non-binary if you were born a boy?” The answer to that question was, “No.” I haven’t thought about that before. That’s a little anecdote to illustrate curiosity and asking questions lead you down new paths of thought.
Karolin, do you have more to say?
Let’s not underestimate the amazing power of curiosity. This applies to business as well. It’s the perfect antidote for being judgmental, even with expectations in a way you are judgmental. If the other person is not meeting the expectation, it’s the implicit judgment about it. You can cure this by deliberately shifting to curiosity.
Let's not underestimate the amazing power of curiosity. And this applies to business as well. It's the perfect antidote for being judgmental even with expectations. Share on X
Sometimes it’s not easy, but it’s something we can deliberately shift to curiosity and wanting to understand the other person. Tell me who you are. Tell me what the world looks like from your point of view. Tell me what your experiences are. Tell me how you perceive everything. Things like that. This is something I try to do.
I’ve realized when I’m not able to do that when I don’t have a good day, when I’m running out of energy, whatever, or when I’m too much into my judgments and expectations. However, it’s something you can reflect on. Sometimes when something happens and I’m sorry for that, we sleep the night and then I come back to Kai and say, “Listen, I said something, I did something, and I regret it. Let’s talk about that.”
What happens if you have to be the strong mom and the strong mother and say, “Kai, this was not good.” Kai, my teenager. You sound like you were always perfect in listening. What happens when you have to say, “No, that doesn’t work?”
My mother says, “No, that doesn’t work,” in a way that isn’t being the strong or the hard mother. She does this in very much the same way in which she listens safely and kindly. She never puts any blame on me. She never says, “How could you be stupid?” She says, “This situation is not optimal. How can we improve the situation? How can we solve this problem that might have arisen? What can we do? You forgot to take your passport. What can we do? How can we solve this?” It’s not, “You forgot to take your passport. Why didn’t you take your passport?” Asking that question is futile because the passport isn’t there.
I see also implications for business. It’s key to put relationships first.
Connection Before Content
You said connection before content. That’s the next piece I wanted to say. That’s where we are. The last question is connection before content.
It’s so key that if there’s something unfavorable, negative, challenging, or difficult, you’re not beginning to be antagonists fighting with each other or one against the other. It’s more, “Let’s be together in it and try to come out of this and try to solve this.” Not opposing each other, but side-by-side looking at the problem.
We’re almost out of time for this part of the conversation. Let me ask you each one final question. Karolin, if someone said, “They’re telling my story. I need to know more about this,” what would you say to the child that they should ask their parents? What’s one thing that a child should know?
One thing is the immediate reactions from the parents often don’t have much to do with the child. They have more to do with the problems and issues the parents have. Parents are people.
The other way around, Kai, what would you say to any parents who are saying, “This is what’s going on with my child. How can I be the best parent?”
A very important thing to remember about children and young people is we’re not people who aren’t yet complete. We are people trying to find ourselves. It’s a subtle difference to pick up on, but it’s key. It’s important to remember that you’re child is at a stage of their life where they’re trying to find their footing, or they’re trying to figure out who they are. That makes them incredibly vulnerable.
That vulnerability puts a lot of responsibility on the people in their lives who’ve already found their footing, who’ve grown up, and who have hopefully a stable home and job. Try to give a lifeline to that child, a railing that they can grab hold of when they lose their footing in any way and say, “I’ve got you.” The child has to take the steps themselves, but you can be there and say, “In case you fall, I’m here.”
The child has to take steps themselves, but you can be there. Give a lifeline to your child, a railing that they can grab hold of when they lose their coaching in any way. Share on X
I love that. What a great conversation. This is going to be wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me. If anyone has further questions, you can send a message. This has been Speakers Who Get Results. I’m Elizabeth Bachman. I’ll see you on the next one.
Important Links:
- Dr. Karolin Helbig
- Dr. Karolin Helbig – LinkedIn
- The Importance Of Psychological Safety With Minette Norman and Karolin Helbig
About Dr. Karolin Helbig
Building on more than two decades of experience as a management consultant and in leadership development, along with a deep expertise in science, Karolin Helbig helps leaders increase their effectiveness, optimize team performance, and transform their organizations through mindset, emotional intelligence, and psychological safety. She serves large, international corporations as well as mid-size companies and non-profit organizations and is known for bridging the gap between theory and practice.